Reallistic Combat Model for Native

[mfhberg]

Sorry for this non-consequential post.

The barbs on the M&B spear model are turned back.  Their only possible function would be to make the spear impossible to remove from a wound.  This would obviously not be a good idea, if the polearm was an infantryman's primary weapon.  The Roman pilum used this sort of thing, but it was a deliberately disposable weapon - it was either thrown or driven into an opponent's body or shield and then released, to allow the size and weight of the weapon to incapacitate the target.  The pictured weapon was clearly not designed with that concept in mind, so the barbs are, in a word, incorrect.  The design was planned to look scary, not to actually work.

The barbs may have been used to hook and move shields, and yank on an opponents armor, like the small hooks on some polearms, but it looks more like an oversized fishing spear/harpoon to me.

[Ron Losey]

If they were intentional weaponized additions, they were poorly designed.  The polearms designed to actually hook something (from many parts of the world) all had a few things in common - first the hook was big enough to give a reasonable chance at actually snagging something, and second the hook was designed in such a way that it would not enter the spear wound and hang (as barbs on a harpoon do, and are intended to do).  The outcroppings on the M&B native spears fail on both counts.

They are, as mentioned, apparently modeled on a harpoon.  Fine for a whaler, but a lousy choice for an infantry weapon.

Stuff like this makes it hard to get a sense of realism out of the game.

[animematt]

I am a bit lost. I think I downloaded the wrong file as I get an error when I load the game "get_object failed for: bo_snowy_pine_2"

I will continue looking through the thread. But there seem to be so many links and updates, I dont know where to start

Got it to work. Is this compatible with other mods at all? I want to try a formation mod

[Ron Losey]

I don't even know which download you got.  No, it is not, in its current form, functional with any other mod that modifies the item list at all.  This package was purely intended as a resource for modders wishing to incorporate the RCM into their own projects.  It is not really "playable" in current form.

It sounds like you tried to add it over some other mod.  No chance that will work.

[animematt]

I don't even know which download you got.  No, it is not, in its current form, functional with any other mod that modifies the item list at all.  This package was purely intended as a resource for modders wishing to incorporate the RCM into their own projects.  It is not really "playable" in current form.

It sounds like you tried to add it over some other mod.  No chance that will work.

I accidentally downloaded the one for a different version. I am reading through the forum bit by bit to see what exactly this does as well. I havent even played vanilla in a while, so I cant really tell what is different

[Nameless One]

Is there any list of what RCM really does to item stats? I know it makes the combat more realistic, but how do it do that?

[mfhberg]

RCM makes a clear difference between poorly armored people and well armored people. It also takes a more realistic look at weapon damage and some at weapon speed (lack of a fatigue bar makes that a bit tough). To see what it does to item stats you can download the version for native and compare it with the native stats.

mfberg

[Duuvian]

Ron,

I noticed Warband has been released. Now, I haven't spent too much time reading up on the capabilities of Warband to handle mods, in fact I don't even know what the version number is. I was simply wondering what the latest release of the RCM for Native is, since I plan on playing some M&B in the near future and would like to apply your excellent changes. The latest version I found on the repository was for M&B version 1.010/1.011.

Also, are there any mods for the latest version with RCM included?

Thanks for your time Ron, and anyone else who replies.

[Ron Losey]

Haven't had a chance to even look at "warband" native.  Things have been a little more hectic than normal.

However, I would think that an RCM conversion should be an eventual goal there, certainly.

Somebody was telling me that quite a bit of the game computation model had been changed, so it may be a little more complicated than just porting them over.  That is, of course, NOT good news ... and if it's as screwed up as the last set of changes (.890 and following), it could be a major project to fix.  We'll see.

If anybody wants to start collecting data for that, have at it ....  I certainly have no problem with somebody else doing part or all of the conversion.

As for other mods using it, as I said, I've not really had a chance to keep up with that sort of thing lately.  Sorry about that, but I got the job of school photography adviser dumped in my lap recently (on top of some classes and other assorted college-sounding projects), so I spend much of my time running in circles these days (and telling the guy with the camera that he's an idiot... there's a lot of that).  Hopefully I'll get more time to put into M&B mods, but likely not this week.

[Jean Plassy]

... you should look at the fk they added, "Great Long Axes", "Great Long Bardiches". Don't know if such thing ever would make it to a real battlefield because they are more like your telefone pole than a real weapon. You should see their native stats: 90 speed for "Great Long Axe" and a pathetic "Unbalanced" tab slapped into the thing. Result: a couple of wild mouse swings and hectic clicking, and these things have the reach of a pike with the speed of a shortsword  .


It's seriously screwed up. So much they had to add up another screwed up feature, "Melee Friendly Fire" to compensate for the "LOL, AXE SPAM" that MP battles degenerated into.

[Ron Losey]

That's about what I would have figured.

Although, for historical reference, there were some gigantic weapons that actually did see use.  Of course, "unbalanced" doesn't even start to describe them.  But even then, the Dane axe was like four to six feet of handle and a really scary-looking head, and those are the base model for the European battle axe.  Halberds grew to over 17 feet long... That would be like an M&B reach stat of around 400, even including some extra handle space.  It's astounding some of the things that people actually tried to carry and use, and even more astounding that some of them actually worked.

But anyway ... mental note ... it's a mess.  When I get about a year of free time, I'll take a look.

[Jean Plassy]

Yep, but then, nobody goes on whirling a halberd around widly. These big weapons, pikes and all, were more like formation weapons designed to be scary and to kill in a fairly stationary position versus what you can perform with a katana. M&B however, has given them the privilege of being katana-like irregardless of the weight considerations.

Some chap in the Talewords fora told that the part of the pole just "holding" the axe blade was extremely heavy and bulky, screwing up the weight distribution of the weapon and making it very hard and long to regain the momentum to swing it. Cannot attest to that except that the new "Unbalanced" tag doesn't work as expected.

[Ron Losey]

Yeah, roger that...

Built a 12 foot halberd once.  (Well, the blade looked more like volge than halberd, really, but we built it out of scrap iron just to test weight and balance, so it wasn't intended to be a work of art.)  It wasn't as hard to handle as one might think (considering it was awfully heavy), but by M&B numbers, the speed would be about 20.  You really had to plan ahead to figure out where the heavy thing was going to be one full second in advance.  Vicious weapon, though.  Would be really frightening to be on the other end of it, no matter how you were armed or armored.  We were thinking halberds might be effective in modern riot control (particularly in urban conditions, where gunfire can have undesirable side-effects), but the rather extreme lethality and lack of a free shield hand made that a less than ideal plan.  (Short swords with modern bullet-proof riot shields, using Roman legion tactics, actually came out the best in that scenario, if anyone was wondering.  MUCH more effective than the normal riot batons, since you don't need a long swing to make a blade effective.  Also blades draw more blood than impact weapons, making them psychologically more effective at breaking resistance... a broken arm doesn't look that bad at a distance, but one cup full of blood splattered across a street looks like the first 20 guys marched into an airplane propeller.)

Anyway, I can say for certain that long polearms are a real challenge to control, and even if you're strong enough to deal with them, they are surely not fast.  In fact, it feels like they're moving in slow motion.  I think somebody on the M&B crew watches too many cartoons.

Still, I really don't have time to look at it right now.  But again, if somebody wants to collect data on changes to the system and/or start a conversion, I'll do what I can.

[Jean Plassy]

Hi Ron,

I'm dl'ing the release version of Warband and I may help with that in the future. In fact I might port it entirely, based on the last 1.011 RCM build, then let you check it out once you get the expansion.

[sdog]

ciao ron,

i've tested warband a bit, and i got the first bad news regarding RCM. The damage type and value for bow/arrow is still attached to the bow, as in old mbx. so still no way to have different arrow types.

they got rid of the stupid polle-axe and war hammer models, and introduced more realistic looking ones. i've tried only the warhammer so far, it is similar to the one you introduced. values are quite off however. it's pierce value is ok, but it's blunt overhead swing damage is less than that of a spear! it can't be swung sideways also. in total in game it's less usefull and powerfull than a spear. this really needs someone to take care of it.

a nice new addition, some thrown weapons (axes, javelins etc) can be used as melee weapons too. the mode can be switched with a weapon mode key. the values are a bit off however. thrown they cause about twice the damage. that's something i can hardly believe.

there must be a new flag included, to prevent some weapons to be used from horseback. long pikes for example can only be used as an infantry weapon now.

now the most important part of warband is multiplyaer of course. there are always two factions fighting each other. the player can choose from one class (infantry, cavalry, ranged) and then modify the equipment. only a small selection of faction and class based weapons can be "bought". better equipment is more expensive. players get money for kills. the balance is quite ok, and it's not obviously anachronistic. so there are no plate armours vs. short sleved maille shirts.

i direct implementation of RCM would completely break the balance of the multiplayer part, if the available equipment would not be balanced accordingly. the first to kill enough to get heavy armour would be almost invincible. while the rest stay vulnerable. (maybe this is even realistic, with actual nobles who are almost untouchable on the battlefield, and many poor sods who get shredded?)