Recruiting, requesting and donating

[heavens_hitman]

I could to houses....or rocks,yes rocks

[Ron Losey]

I could to houses....or rocks,yes rocks

Hey, Raz ... do we need "rocks"?

I mean, the land of Palestine is home to the world's largest selection of exposed sandstone, after all.  We might need interesting rocks.

[Raz]

What would you have in mind?

[Ron Losey]

Who, me?  I don't have anything in particular in mind.  I was just commenting that he said he could model rocks, and Palestine is full of rocks ... there must be some useful application here.

[bobsters35]

If you guys need a promo vid just tell me and ill make it.

[Racetyme]

I would like to help out with the mod, but I have no modding experience. I'm intelligent and know my way around a computer, but I would need some comprehensive training. If you are willing to put in the time to train me up, I'd love to help.

[Sunhawken]

I could share codes.

[Ron Losey]

I would like to help out with the mod, but I have no modding experience. I'm intelligent and know my way around a computer, but I would need some comprehensive training. If you are willing to put in the time to train me up, I'd love to help.

There are massive numbers of various tutorials both on this board and over at Taleworlds, for exactly that purpose.  That's how I figured out what I was doing here.  You're not the first one to be in that position.

I could share codes.

Get with Raz by PM and find out what he needs.

[Outremer]

I have an MA in Medieval Studies from the University of Toronto and have specialized in the Crusades.  I don't have much experience with modding (other than skinning), but I do have an enormous library of information on the subject and I would love to help.

Are you guys looking for anyone to add historical input, or are you pretty much set there?

[Ron Losey]

I have an MA in Medieval Studies from the University of Toronto and have specialized in the Crusades.  I don't have much experience with modding (other than skinning), but I do have an enormous library of information on the subject and I would love to help.

Are you guys looking for anyone to add historical input, or are you pretty much set there?

Raz is bogged down in schoolwork at the moment, but said he would be back to the mod ASAP.

We could certainly use research help.  At the moment, over in the other thread, there has been a running question about social structures at the time.  The missing details were:

1.  What actual number of non-nobility managed to work their way into knighthood by military accomplishment?  We know a few did, but what were the odds against it?  A lot of sources think that the Templars and Hospitallers did more of this than most ... but again, it's missing confirmation or exact numbers.

2.  What are the appropriate Muslim titles for various levels of nobility?  What do you call someone who runs a city?  "Emir" translates "king", but would fit more along the lines of "Duke" to European politics.  Below that, what did the social structure look like?  (We can't do proper Saracens without this.  We threw together some rather educated guesses, but they're not much.)

3.  On a similar note, how do you properly write titles for knights with various political roles?  A knight who is head of the city guard ... "Knight-commander"?  How about one who is administrator of a village under some Baron?  Any other good jobs like that...

4.  The only two points remaining on weapon and armor research: One is the use of armored horse.  This was the period where heavier armor on horses was coming into style among European groups, but wasn't really there yet.  Exact details on what kind of horse armor was in use would be good.  We currently compromised and have some maille-armored mounts, but rare, and some decorative coverings that, from their armor value, apparently have some reinforcement (leather, maybe, or a few thin strips of metal).  However, better research on that would help.

4b.  Number two on weapons is the use of pole-axes.  They existed, although shorter than the later European halberds, but how widespread were they?  (Again, we made a good guess, but hard data is preferable.)


If you can come up with something intelligent on those, you're good.

[Outremer]

I'll have them all answered tomorrow.  Its 6am here and I'm still awake.  Give me 12 hours or so.

EDIT: A date would help as well.  Looking at the screenshots the equipment and weapons date generally to the early 13th century.  I assume the mod is focused on the era of the 3rd crusade?  Or are you sweeping through two centuries?

Is there any way to only allow certain armour and weapons beyond a specific date?  A coat of plates wouldn't have been worn by King Richard, but perhaps by King Louis IX during his attempt on Mansoura.

[Ron Losey]

Mod starts 1187.

http://mbx.streetofeyes.com/index.php/topic,28.0.html

However, beyond that point, it's purely what-if.  All developments in war and such that occur after the start date will be either random/computer generated or a result of player actions.

All equipment, as best we could, is limited to what was historical within a few years of that time.  It is doubtful that players will stay in the game for more than 40 years of game time (even though Player characters don't technically age in M&B ... that would involve several thousand hours of real time, assuming normal activity levels), so changes in tech over time are not on the list of things to do.

However, except for the technical details of horse armors and the extent of pole-hammer use, I think the other equipment is researched close enough to even keep rather demanding historians relatively happy.  The social questions are more pressing, as player advancement is to be a major part of the game, and our data on them is a little more sketchy.

[Outremer]

I'm compiling my answers for you.  The social questions were harder to answer than I expected, and I assume you want good sourcing so its taking a bit longer than I'd like (especially with Christmas visiting still going on here).  On the subject of armour and weaponry, I noticed in a few screenshots swords of the Oakeshott type XIII, or even XIX.  If we're focusing on the decades following the Battle of Hattin, I wouldn't think swords beyond XI & XIa typology are relevant to maintain a proper historical context. XII and XIII were popular during the Crusades, but not the period we're focusing on here.  Hehe, I also noticed the team reproduced the swords and helmets from the movie Kingdom of Heaven (sword of Ibelin and the Hospitallers helm), and thats fine for a little creative flare, but they're not remotely historically accurate.

Examples: http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/khaya/knight.jpg shows an Oakeshott Type XIV. Earliest use is about 100 years later.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/khaya/kettlehelm.jpg The Kettle Helm was not in use at this time.  It is probably contemporary with the Oakeshott Type XIV above

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/khaya/nasal.png The Ventail here looks like an integrated piece of the coif.  Again, I would love to see the flap tied and the ventail given an additional layer itself, like this:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/khaya/templarknight-brother.jpg The Templar has the wrong cross, one more typical of a Hospitaller.  It shouldn't be fish-tailed, just straight edges, but it is in the correct position.  His helm is pushing it, it may have been in use at this time but it should probably be flat-topped and without a nasal guard.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y26/khaya/hospitallerknight-brother.jpg hehe, I already mentioned this helm.  I'm not sure on the Hospitaller surcoat either...


Something you might also want to consider is the ability to colour helms, especially the Norman helm and early versions of the great helm.  Crusaders had learned by the time of Hattin to wear surcoats to counter the heat from the sun on their chainmail and by this time were taking to the practice of colouring them based on their social position and individual tastes.  They often followed suit with their helms as well, painting them colours that matched their surcoats or developing heraldry. This of course isn't the typical hollywood look of a knight in shining armour, but it is historically accurate. EDIT: I'm thinking here it would be neat to be able to suit up your heros in your own colours to more easily identify them on the battlefield; the purpose this practice was developed for having a practical use in the game would be uber cool.

To add one more thing, its nice to see some indication of a ventail on chainmail coifs, but it was more of a flap that tied a section of chainmail across the chin and mouth than an integrated piece of the coif at this time.  You guys would make me so happy if this was properly shown, because I've never seen it properly done *anywhere* (video games or movies).

Anyways, like I said, you'll hear from me soon with regard to your other questions.  I haven't gotten to the armoured cavalry question yet, but off the top of my head I'm fairly certain mounts weren't protected at this time, nor were they draped in cloth yet.  I think this is a convention of the middle 13th century, about 50 years later than our period here.

[Merlkir]

I've suggested painted helms before and I think HW already has some of those
Another thing to make you happy, the mouthflaps are in see some detailed helm screenshots. (also my suggestion heh )

[Ron Losey]

The cloth-draped mounts did start during the Crusades, originally to protect the horses from the extreme climate of the deserts.  We have good records in art to indicate the kind of decoration used on said mounts in the period, and Raz has modeled them with tremendous accuracy.  A few pieces of horse armor have survived, but in such fragments that nobody could really tell what they were making.  If it was easy, we would have worked it out LONG ago. 

Also the tabbards and mail masks on helmets are well done.  They are already in the dev version.  Even the most demanding historian will find their accuracy impressive.  Raz did those - I can't take any credit there.

The swords are ... well, based on the assumption that a lot of designs were probably floating around at the time.  Considering that only a hand full of blades have survived, it's very reasonable to think that there were many designs out there that we have not seen.  So, anything that looked close to appropriate was thrown in, just in case.  Same with helmets ... a few are based on historical pieces, the rest based on guesswork and poorly drawn art.

The reason those questions are hard is that they have already stumped several of us, and in this case, several of us who are known for being pretty solid historians.  Why I said that if you can come up with good responses on those, you really are good.