(Historic) Development and suggestions

[Landsknecht]

By the way, I kind of jumped right in without introducing myself, for this I apolagize. I stumbled onto Mount and Blade only recently but it has already piqued my interest as an interesting take on the medieval combat rpg. I saw this Mod and immediatly became excited, since I am a near fannatical history buff, especially interested in the crusades. Anyway, how do you do to all of you.

[Ron Losey]

By the way, I kind of jumped right in without introducing myself, for this I apolagize. I stumbled onto Mount and Blade only recently but it has already piqued my interest as an interesting take on the medieval combat rpg. I saw this Mod and immediatly became excited, since I am a near fannatical history buff, especially interested in the crusades. Anyway, how do you do to all of you.

Nobody introduces themselves around here, they just jump in.  I did the Realistic Combat Model.  I'm not a programmer either.  I am a warrior.  In retrospect, life would have been more fun if I had been a poet or a shepherd.

The sling animation causes terrible problems for the M&B game engine because thrown weapons cannot leave anything in the hand.  The MesoAmerica mod had the same problem with the atlatl - it does not actually appear in the hand in that mod, and only the dart is visible.  That is hard-code and beyond the capabilities of modders at this time.

And the axes are as accurate to life as I could make them.  I grew up learning to throw a Cherokee tomahawk.  The Fransisca is not that different.  It doesn't really give much range or velocity - maybe fifteen paces tops - but it's pretty scary when somebody lobs one at you.  I think I got them pretty close.

The Bedouins are NOT being used interchangeably with the Saracens (Ayyubid Caliphate).   The Bedouins make a number of appearances as tribal raiders and nomads, unaffiliated with the major factions.  Sometimes they end up in somebody's army, but not likely.  The Muslim troops belonging to actual governments are referred to as Seljuk, Ayyubid, Mamluk, Ghulam, or other designations more appropriate to their exact positions.

The Asiatic composite bows are in-game.  They don't really out-perform their European counterparts for damage, but they are lighter and physically smaller, making them somewhat faster to use.  I've done a lot of archery too - killed a lot of little furry things with arrows.

The one advantage the Muslim troops had in range was their habit of training horse archers.  Europe was lacking for missile cav - and that cost them in the desert.  That somewhat goes back to the shorter Asiatic composite recurve bows, which are easier to transport and use from horse, but that was not the cause.

I'm on school break for Chinese New Year.  I've been working on three different M&B mods, and I'm working a lot harder at it than I ever do teaching Western culture studies to university undergrads.  Enjoy your vacation.


Edit:  Two other points on the previous observations.

The composite recurve bows were difficult and expensive to build.  Just finding suitable layers of wood and bone could be difficult, and properly curing them for use in bows could take months (or years).  The materials themselves were not worth anything, but the labor and knowledge required to make a bow out of them was daunting.

This did not mean that there were not a lot of them on the field.  It also takes a year to build a good coat of maille using methods of the time, but a lot of people still had the stuff.

And speaking of maille, some of the Asian lamellar armors were quite a bit more sturdy than what the European troops were using.  The difference was in statistics - while most of the European troops had some kind of armor, many of the Muslim armies depended on large numbers of lightly armored or unarmored troops, and only had heavy armor on certain people in key roles (say, heavy shock infantry, or mounted nobles).  The Muslims had some very good armor, but they also had a lot of slaves who were out there half-naked.  The guys here did a good job of capturing that, well before I became involved in the project.

Saladin did have a habit of meeting the Crusader armies on the field.  His troops proved quite effective in that role - finally resulting in their marginally effective but ultimately successful siege on Jerusalem.  The image of the Saracens using hit-and-run tactics to evade open battle is probably misplaced.  It probably came from people reporting every bandit raid and street crime as enemy activity.  (I mean, from the European's point of view, all of those towel-heads are the same, right?)

[Caer_Baer]

Ron: Western culture studies, eh? For some reason, i figured you were an ESL teach. Dunno why, though..

Anyway (idk about historical acc. on this one, so screw me), what about unique 'Holy relics'?
(perhaps in addition to the 'True Cross' idea discussed earlier)
Nah, they're not 'magic'. They don't even have to be genuine (plenty of forgeries an fakes),
but they give definite benefits (psychology: rel. fanaticism, medieval people suckerism, placebo, whatever),
just small bonuses, though: +1 to a skill (leader,healing,etc). Maybe you could even choose to leave
it in a city of your choice (additional troop type recruitment/more recruits weekly).
Could be 'the True Crown of Thorns', 'San Greal(cup form)', some saint's preserved remains..
but, of course, coolest would be weapons/armor. Nah, they won't be uber; some of these would just be
average-type stuff w/ +skill, others w/o + skill, but exeptionally made:
Masterwork Damascus Steel weapon, forged by legendary smith; the ancient 'True Excalibur' - weaker
than a regular sword of the same type, but with pierce dam; Lancea Longini, the Holy Spear, the Spear of
Destiny; Saladin's Old armor: second-hand, maybe, but still kickass; a Shield with 3 lions, a la King Richard's;
other spears- the Spear of Lancelot, the Spear of St. George..

Kinda ridiculous for a historic mod, I know (I was thinking of the special items in TLD, plus I saw
some talk of "St. Longinus' Spear" in the DarkLands mod thread), But if toned down, it could be a plausible
idea.

It's the Holy War, and while not everyone was a fanatic, there was enought fanaticism present there for people
to 'create their own miracles' and credit their God/saints for it..

[Ron Losey]

Ron: Western culture studies, eh? For some reason, i figured you were an ESL teach. Dunno why, though..

I've done some conversational English, and various other language-related classes over the years.  However, I found most of the communication errors by English-speaking students in China were not grammar, but cultural misunderstanding (of which there is no shortage).  So, I started specializing in Comparative Civ and cross-cultural communication, trying to minimize culture shock and maximize useful communication, and the schools I have worked for generally accepted the idea.  Now, that's all I do.  But yes, I generally work with students studying English as a Foreign Language (not really a "Second Language"), either as a primary or secondary skill, and/or their teachers.  Sometimes I have to correct their grammar.

But I feel a little better every time a student does NOT open a conversation with "Where are you going?  Have you had lunch?"

-----------------------------------

Somebody was talking about building a quest for religious artifacts earlier ... I think it got put on the back burner, pending getting the obvious stuff working.  It really needs a working morale system in place, to make them do something (i.e. they improve morale) - but we don't have one of those at the moment either, and nobody is sure exactly how that might function.  Getting a morale system to work with the war in general is not going to be easy - a lot of variables there.  I said to have morale affect troop respawn/recruiting, as in "nobody wants to join your army any more" ... but that would just be the tip of the iceberg.

It's worth thinking about.

[Landsknecht]

Ahh well, that really is unfortuante that the programming won't allow for that motion. I apolagize for oversimplifying it
also, thanks for the clarification, especially in the area of the interchangability between the beduoin and the Ayyubids. From reading prior posts i got the notion that, just as you said, they were all being thrown into the same "towel head" group. The hit and run comment was in reference to them, in particular, since they would have utilized this tactic almost exclusively.

Also should have thrown in a footnote clarifying the mounted bowmen, but again, thank you for catching me. However, as far as the time necessary to make a composite bow, I think we are relying on different sources. I know that composite bows take alot of work to make, and I would be able to understand a month process, but a year? It could be that I have simply never heard of this soaking process. All of the information I have read on composite bows from this time describe a glueing process, but I do not recall a lengthy time associated with this.

Im glad you know what i was trying to say about the throwing axes too! I found it uncannily difficult to describe the hit or miss nature of the throwing axe. Although, even the misses could be interesting i imagine. Those throwing axes were sharp, and even after hitting the ground would bounce unpredictibly all over the place. Case and point, I once threw an axe at a target, had it hit the ground, bounce up off the ground, and stick sideways in the post. If those had been someones shins, that would have been their unlucky day. I also am with you on the archery, although, I use my powers for good, not evil. I prefer to leave the furry little things alone and them live in peace.

Anyway, thanks for the vacation wishes. It's good to be back.

[Ron Losey]

I was born in Oklahoma.  My family is still there.  It's not a matter of leaving the little furry things in peace.  The little furry things will wander right into your house, if you don't get rid of some of them.  The State Department of Wildlife Conservation is VERY concerned about the spike in the deer population in the last 5 years - if somebody doesn't kill about 20 million of them soon, it's going to be an environmental disaster ... disease, eradication of plant life, dust storms from over-grazing.  It's a little late to leave them in peace - people should have thought of that when the first humans moved out there.  Now, farming=too many deer.  The deer are just one of 50 examples of out-of-balance wildlife - some too many, and as a result, others too few.  Dang feral pigs are going to eat the whole state (including the people), if somebody doesn't do something soon.

I'm not sure exactly how much they were processing bow materials at exactly that time and place.  There is one guy in Beijing who still makes traditional composite bows - his materials curing process, plus glue time and whatever, adds up to about a year for a bow, start to finish.  (Cost about $650 U.S. - Finest ranged weapons made, anywhere.  I would love to have one.)  I read somewhere that the Huns spent a year or more curing the materials for a bow, plus at least 2000 man-hours carving, glue, and finishing.  If the Saracen bows were the same, then they took a LONG time, and a LOT of man-hours to build.  Since I don't know any Saracens, I'm going to estimate off of the bows I do know, and say these things were expensive as heck.

Of course, other weapons and armor weren't cheap either.  Coat of maille took a year to make, and cost a lot more than most people's houses at the time (even the decent houses, not counting the peasant mud-and-thatch shacks).

You should try killing things with the arrows.  Nothing has the knockdown of an arrow... nothing. They'll bring down a wild boar that won't even flinch at a rifle hit.  I've seen it.

We were splitting playing cards with the axes at 8 paces.  It had to be 8 or 15 - that was where our axe rolled over.  I was never much good, and that was years ago - but you don't want me to fling an axe at you, that's for sure.

So far there have been very few bugs reported with the RCM - maybe this beta will turn into a release soon, and everybody can see what has been done with the weapons and armor.  (Anyone who is impatient, check out Onin-no-Ran ... a very nearly bug-free version released today, with a fine example of the new combat model.)

[Landsknecht]

Ah, well, im sure somewhere in Catholic Dogma it says thou shalt not suffer a feral pig to live. My case is just a little different. I live in southern california where seeing a dear is something that makes little children jump and down in excitement. Come to think of it, in the area that I live in, finding a kid who has seen a dear at all outside of a Disney cartoon would be difficult. So it's just a case of different strokes for different folks. I'm definitely not anti hunting, there just isnt much to hunt in a concrete jungle.

Anyway, I'm off to check the Onin Mod, in order to see what you are talking about

Be ever vigilant in your struggle against the furry bane of our existence- The deer.

[DarkAnd]

raz i am thinking about this mod and i have got some ideas to add:
1: if you are waiting the enemy is out during a siege maybe cam be possible to build palisades of course whit 2 Weeks or more to build
2:has the mentioned palisades the enemy castles/towns can have a Palisades our of the Wall has a first ring of defence
3:the possibility to build a camp
4:the camp cam be to rest for a while or to pass the entire day training or troops to increase the xp whit 10% more than the training skill but calculated by hour(example if you have training skill that gives 100 of xp each day to your troops give 110 but if you build you camp at midday give only 55
5:the baners can give a bonus morale at the begin of the Battle maybe increasing the force of the troops but creating a special unit for them may a flag man or anything has this and he uses the flag has weapon(already have has shield maybe be easy to transform into polearm
and sorry for the English i forget mi new dictionary in the rain

[Landsknecht]

The camp might be an interesting idea, rather than just waiting on the world map. But there would need to be some more thought put into it, since setting up camp for a whole army only to move an hour or so later would never happen, so there would have to some limits as to when and where. Also, the changing of a flag into a polearm (I think?) is already implemented. I do not have concrete proof to support this, except for the fact that somewhere on the taleworlds forum I saw a screenshot of armored knights charging with with their banners attached to their lances.

Maybe someone could confirm or deny?

[Ron Losey]

The camp might be an interesting idea, rather than just waiting on the world map. But there would need to be some more thought put into it, since setting up camp for a whole army only to move an hour or so later would never happen, so there would have to some limits as to when and where. Also, the changing of a flag into a polearm (I think?) is already implemented. I do not have concrete proof to support this, except for the fact that somewhere on the taleworlds forum I saw a screenshot of armored knights charging with with their banners attached to their lances.

Maybe someone could confirm or deny?

Confirm lances with flags in the beta.  Too bad they seem awfully stiff - wish we could make them flow right.

[Landsknecht]

Thanks Ron. Have I mentioned yet today how helpful you are

[Ron Losey]

Thanks Ron. Have I mentioned yet today how helpful you are

I'm real helpful when I'm bored out of my head.

Come first of March or so, I will actually start having to do some work again ... then I'll be less helpful.

[Aqtai]

OK, I'm using general terms - not the specific terms that certain history books assign to certain things.

Any material made from overlapping segments is lamellar.  That applies to armor or roofing shingles.  The most common use of the term in armoring is for laced scale lamellar, like the Byzantine and central Asian armors.  However, by the general definition of the word, European scale and Japanese banded lamellar also qualify.  So do asphalt roofing shingles and fish scales.  That is a general term not limited to ancient armors.

Brigandine, in general, is any protective clothing that attaches rigid reinforcing materials to a cloth or soft leather garment.  This differentiates it from laced lamellars, where the reinforcing materials are laced to each other, and from partial plate armors where the sections are connected to other sections by more flexible armoring materials.  European scale armor is a brigandine, because it uses a cloth backing rather than lacing the scales to each other.  So are metal-reinforced brigandines like the "Visby Plate", and most of the common European hardened leather armors.  So are the metal or ceramic trauma plates that are added to modern military flak vests.rms you favor.

Sorry Ron, i can't let that go.

I've looked this up in a few sources.

Leonid Tarassuk and Claude Blair in "The Complete Encyclopaedia of Arms and Weapons" (available second hand from Amazon) define brigandine as follows:

A medieval term of Italian origin for a type of armored sleeveless jacket weighing about 9 kg. (20 lbs)... The structure consisted of of small rectangular lames in arranged in vertical strips, overlapping like roof tiles, then mounted on on a supporting cloth or hide in parallel rows, the attachment being made with rivets whose heads were visible outside (my italics)... In fact it was a light version of the coat of plates...

David Edge and John Miles Paddock in "Arms and Armor of the Medieval Knight" have the following definition for a brigandine:

A flexible body defence consisting of a large number of metal plates riveted inside (my italics) a cloth covering.

Stephen N. Fliegel has this picture in "Arms and Armour, The Cleveland Museum of Art", click on the thumbnail please:



And finally Stephen Bull and Tony North in "A Historical Guide to Arms and Armour", also available from Amazon, have this picture:





On the subject of "double mail", you are quite right, although there are many theories, no one has any idea what it really was.  Turkish, Persian, Egyptian and Indian mail however are virually identical in construction to European mail:



There was also a lot of variation in Oriental armours as some used flat rings and others did not, also some mail armours used quite large rings, where as others used very fine links, look at the difference in ring size between these Turkish armours:

[Ron Losey]

These are good examples of European brigandine torso armors.

Note that the term is also used to translate a number of Chinese and Japanese armor descriptions, which have very different dates and applications.  Although I can't find the reference at the moment, the Japanese splinted forearm and shin guards are referred to as brigandine construction in some texts.

Also, the "coat of plates" is mechanically identical to the pictured brigandines, except using larger plates ... how much larger, and in what ratio of large to small, depended on the armorer.  At exactly what point does a coat of armor switch from being one to the other?  What about "scale" armors?  Scale armors with cloth on both sides?

The Korean and Mongol armors from some of their early confrontations with Japan (12th century) are always described as brigandine, and their backing was usually on the inside ... it can either be described as very heavy oddly-constructed scale/splinted/something, or brigandine, and most who have seen it use the latter.  (The better, and later, Mongol armor used more true lamellar.  That's easy to describe... but harder to build.)

I still think my definition stands... in general terms, a brigandine construction is an armor that uses a cloth or soft leather backing to hold the protective material in place.  The term was first coined to describe Italian torso armors, sure, but it is currently used to describe non-European armors and arm/leg guards of similar construction from various other periods as well - since the original languages present problems for most English speakers.

I'm rather used to talking about armors from outside the European definitions, so I tend not to use the most rigid classifications - it doesn't serve the purpose as soon as you leave Europe.  That's what I mean "general terms".

-----------------------------------------

For the alternative design of maille, look up "Japanese kusari".  It appeared in Europe under the names "Norman Maille" and "Italian maille" at different times, even though most armors of the Normans and Italians were obviously of the more commonly European design.

It's hard to find pictures of the Japanese chain armors, because they were usually sewed between two layers of cloth on the arm and armpit guards.  The examples of this stuff from Europe are in really bad shape.

Here's a couple of good articles on how it is made:

http://www.artofchainmail.com/patterns/japanese/index.html
http://www.caradoc.org/~iain/gusari.html

(Of course, one of these is SCA, and the other is doing fashion accessories, but it still shows the construction method - what do you expect from a 2-minute internet search?)

Any of those previous terms could have referred to something like this as well.  That makes it even harder to figure out what they were talking about.

[knightbonehead]

Hello all many people may know me.

Um let me get to business. If u really want historic accurate game then disable blocking it wasn't used until 16 century. The first weapon that allowed to block and attack were rapiers. But before 16 century also katana was able to block and attack. And i suggest to make scimitars more powerful than average Europeans longswords.