Onin no Ran

[Ichimonji Hidetora]

@ SwissHalberdier: I can only hope that when I said "shape", you were not thinking about something as accurate in sword shape as a tsunagi, because that would be very... very silly.
Also, yes, some schools used straight bokuto, but not nearly all of them did, famous dojo pretty much used their own standardized bokuto (the reasons for this should be obvious, they had to use the illusive average because samurai owned real swords of various lenghts, too much variation to justify many differently shaped bokuto for the dojo), however this does not reflect what samurai were using in their private family dojo or backyard, as it does not make sense for a kibamusha who owned a strongly curved tachi with a 85cm long blade to train with a straight or nearly straight katana shaped bokuto with a blade length of 70 cm.

Um ... those are pretty fancy.  I seriously doubt that everyone in Japan who practiced with wood weapons had anything that nice.  As stated, those apparently were preserved because they belonged to famous people - and famous people tend to have much more expensive toys than the rest of us ... then and now.

As for how much curve the wood versions had, in most cases it likely started with the degree of curve to the tree limb.  Again, those in that picture were fancy and completely carved to simulate the tsuba - but most probably didn't care to waste that much wood.  The current models in ONR were mine, and I was trying to get the look of something cut from a birch sapling, certainly nothing as fancy as those museum pieces.  (Note that those in the museum sample don't have any chips or dents in them, as they would have if anybody would have actually used them for contact practice.  Real in-use wood weapons tend to turn to splinters after a few hundred hours of actual use, and so are discarded and replaced.)

I greatly suspect that those in the museum picture were primarily used for practice in empty air or demonstration.  Actually, the flattened point (intended to simulate air movement around a blade) pretty much proves that suspicion.  They are certainly not designed with the intent of beating someone into submission, as bokken were sometimes used.

It rather depends on what you're simulating.

Ron, you made a really good point about the lack of damage on those bokuto, it's most likely because they are not as advertised, but it is a low quality picture so maybe we can't see the damage if it's there.
Whenever people (including museums) make bold claims about disposable items such as bokuto (an item that was thought of as not worthy of preservation), like these four that were supposedly owned by the famous kensai... yes, swordsaint Tsukahara Bokuden, we should at least take it with a grain of salt (or in this case a complete salt lake would be more appropriate).
I would like to see some very solid evidence before I will believe that maybe one of them may have belonged to him.

Occasionally when a museum makes a bold claim about some old Japanese item, it may very well turn out to be either a complete fake (modern), or it's less then 200 years old when they claim it's a 1000 years old (like some armor in the Metropolitan museum), I get to see bullshit like that way more often then I would like to.
These four bokuto do raise some red flags, but they are still interesting even if they turned out to be Meiji period.

[SwissHalberdier]

No, I meant "shape" as in "curved", read as "itto-ryu bokuto".  While some early bokuto were curved, the majority seem to have been straight and somewhat heavier than an actual sword.  As for "standardized" bokuto, these didn't exist in the late 1400's.  At all.

As for the damage, that's why there aren't a lot of bokuto left from that time.  Also, those aren't museum pieces, they're bokuto currently in the collection of the Kunii family.  They've been affiliated with the Kashima grand shrine (where Bokuden basically came from) for an extremely long time.  As for training, blade length and curve doesn't drastically change the way the sword works.  I train with a straight bokuto that's probably about 27.5 inch nagasa and I cut just fine with a fairly long tachi a friend of mine from sosuishi-ryu has, probably a 30.5 inch nagasa.  It works beautifully.

Basically, the point of bokuto was to save money on swords -- they're expensive to replace, so you train with sticks.  The thing is, the straighter they are, the longer they'll last because the grain continues from top to bottom uninterrupted.  Some people would have wanted a hand guard, and sometimes this was achieved with a bigass fluffy white thing like... I forget, some school uses them today.  Or if they had money, they had somebody make it for them, like that little old guy that retired without heirs a year or two ago at Tsukubayama... Mr. Sugiyama, I think his name was.  That dude used to supply basically... everybody I know.  I have a bokuto made by him, it's pretty dear to me.  I'll always regret never visiting his shop.  Anyway, Bokuden had plenty of money as a hereditary guji at one of the most influential shrines in Eastern Japan.

As for what you used in your back yard, ask the Jigen-ryu guys.  

[SwissHalberdier]

Here we go.  Notice the bigass white fluffy thing on the right.  That's what I was talking about.

As for bokuto being too small...





All silliness aside, a large number of schools use bokuto that are heavier than shinken.  Some moreso than others.  Just take a look at this baby from the Tennen Rishin-ryu:



That bokuto is MUCH heavier than the average shinken.  There are fukurojinai that are heavier than the average shinken.  I don't get what you mean with the lack of different bokuto sizes, considering the size and weight are, like you said, specialized in various ways for various reasons.  Some of them are more extreme than others, but the concept seems to be that the length isn't as important as the weight (a contention not shared by the Hyoho Niten Ichi-ryu, who use these super light tiny bokuto)... with the exception of extreme length blades like the chouken used in kage-ryu, particularly being due to the utterly immense size of the swords used in that particular school.  Interestingly, however, the Kage-ryu doesn't use bokuto.



Anyway, while I'm at showing pictures and the like, even shinai can outweigh shinken.  Look at these shinai:



Those suckers are made out of split madake or torachiku, not sure.. and wrapped in leather.  Either way they're heavy as hell.  You're not gonna have weight problems with a longer sword and if you do, good luck to you.  Getting the distance right and cutting is easy.  And hard, at the same time... But easy.

Different ryuha had different ways of training and some of them did (and do) encompass ways of dealing with weapons that were longer or shorter -- a term for this common to branches of the Shinkage-ryu, for example, is ”長短一味” ("chotan ichimi" - long and short as one).  What is important, however, is not the length of the sword you use every day -- it's the length of the sword in your hand when there's somebody trying to kill you.  What, then, is the difference?  ”弘法は筆を選ばず” ("Kobo Daishi wasn't picky about his brush.")  It's a common thought among the Japanese -- the tools don't make the artist.  Learning to use the sword is learning to use the sword -- period.  Training with a hundred different sword types won't teach you how to use a hundred different swords.  There just isn't time to learn to use each and every possible sword length and shape, and it is entirely unnecessary.  You learn one, you learn 'em all.  Some ryuha even basically build the rest of the school around kenjutsu.  If you can basically learn to use a spear via kenjutsu, why the hell can't you learn to use a longer or slightly shorter sword via kenjutsu?  Better yet, if you need to train with something akin to your sword in your backyard... Why don't you just use your sword?  Or, if you plan to be like Jigen-ryu and whack trees (not knocking the practice btw, go for it), just do what they do -- pick up the prettiest stick you can find and have at thee, it's not like whacking trees is going to teach you distance.  The only thing that teaches that is experience with another person who knows wtf they're doing, and if you're using different sized bokuto all the time you're basically just teaching each other how to deal with somebody who has a longer/shorter sword, respective of which is which.  That's beyond silly.

Also, I think somebody mentioned wooden training weapons for spears and such... Yeah, those existed.  Still do, in various forms.



Saburi-ryu uses a kagi yari



Hozoin-ryu's has a cross"blade" like a jumonji yari.  Notice the tip.



Kuda yari, Owari kan-ryu



Most schools utilize a simple tapered stick with a leather tip, but there are some cool variations out there.  This one is kashima shin-ryu.  Simple as simple gets.

As for other polearms...



Onaginata, buko-ryu?



Chigiriki, araki-ryu



Nagamaki (buko-ryu again?)



Bayonet

[Wundai]

Hello People,

First post on this forum.

I was wondering if Onin No Ran is still alive and kicking behind the screens, mates? Such an awesome mod!

Secondly, if the first question is yes, are you looking for Building Modellers and Texturers by any chance, to help the mod along?
If yes, I'd like to apply to help out. I have worked(and am still working) for the Ran No Jidai mod ( another game RTW:BI) to make most of its buildings, if you're willing I could send some examples?

Ofcourse this all depends on your first answer

Greets
Wundai

[Ron Losey]

Short answer:  Alive, yes, but on standby.

Fujiwara, our mod lead and only real programmer, has been completely bogged down with real-life problems at the moment.  Without him, we're pretty much in a holding pattern.  I'm pretty much the #2, and I'm not even what you would call a "computer person" ... my actual skills with these things is hit-and-miss.  (My area is realistic combat damage modeling - I make sure that a few "hit points" won't protect you from getting your head cut off.)

Compounding that, it seems everyone else (including myself) are more busy than usual lately.  Various reasons, but the impact is the same.

Look through stuff and see if there's anything you want to try ... have at it.  We never turn down help (although particular suggestions often get the veto for either historical accuracy or technical difficulty).  Somebody will talk to you about any particulars, if you're a bit patient.

[Wundai]

Hey Ron,

Thank you for the answer, I understand.

I will have a try at making a building then (if possible try implementing it ingame) then post some results, afterwards you can always decide on taking the help or not, no strings attached

I hope Fujiwara will get through this rough period with real-life problems in one piece.

Greets
Wundai

[Wundai]

Well I wanted to leave an example screenshot of my work. Here it is



I'll keep checking the forum, when activity returns, I'll repeat the request.

[Chopa]

  Beautiful work Wundai! I look forward to seeing your lovely buildings in-game!

[Wundai]

Hey Thanks

Well me too actually, but I would like  to be part of a more active team, so I'll just slumber with the rest of the mod until the time is right

[Wundai]

Hey Ron,

Don't know if you remember this.

But the Khergit Khanate INN, when you look at the windows, there is a Light Beam Effect which looks pretty nice.

What would you think about implementing such a thing in buildings (Inns,Shinden,manor etc) for Onin, to make the insides of buildings look more alive, some openings in the walls, where light-beams come in. A nice graphical effect?

[Ron Losey]

Fujiwara did all of the internal building lighting.  I don't know anything about how that works.  I do know that he thought it was a real pain to get the light sources lined up with the objects that were apparently generating them, so it's probably not easy.

Also I'm not sure Japanese architecture of the period was all that big on windows.  I would have to look up the details, and that would take a while.

[Wundai]

Ok mate no problem, it was just a thought, not considering the implementations into the mod

Oh by the way, found this in the forest surrounding the town of "Nose" haha.

[Ron Losey]

I didn't get the picture or link or whatever of what you found.

But just for the record, the town of "Nose" is pronounced like (no - SAY), and it is a real place.  That was not a joke at all.

http://maps.google.com.hk/maps?hl=en&safe=active&client=firefox-a&q=japan+map&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Japan&ll=34.973892,135.410957&spn=0.066955,0.110378&z=13&brcurrent=3,0x0:0x0,0

[Wundai]

Ehm Ron... I would never expect the modders to implement a Joke Town on the map. I would have believed it to be a real town which it ofcourse is.

About the picture, it was a Wooden Chair, Hovering 30 meter above the forest in the battlemap.

[Ron Losey]

Never saw one on the battle map, but there was originally (several versions ago) a plan to let players approach some of the bandits in a non-confrontational manner - and the bandit camps had not been cleaned up, and had pieces of stuff everywhere.

Did you mix versions or something?  Because that sounds like a messed-up item table, like it was trying to get a tree and instead got something else.  You usually see that sort of bug when you mix versions, like trying to use a save game from one version on a different release.

Also, certain viruses change variables like that at random.  Might want to run a scan.  And a disk scan, to see if you have a bad data file.

If it's a program problem, it should appear over and over.  And in this case, ONR did not do anything with the trees or the map generator (or wooden chairs - the Japanese sit on the floor), so it would have to be a M&B issue.  Keep an eye out for any more of those kind of bugs.