Discussion: Faction Setups *Spoiler Warning*

[Oroonin]

Not sure I get where you´re going with the tier 3 bhoys, sounds like upgraded regionals? Other than that, good thinking, ´cept ranged cav doesn´t make much sence for anyone but Dorne. The third line could be a faction-defining tree, like northen axes, reach hobilars, Lannister pikes, Stormland marine inf (crossbows with nice melee) or braavosi pirates but mainly inf. On dorne, how about eastern byzantines? Less oriental than arabs, and quite a few texes that fits nicely? If you drop the hellenic heavy inf and look to some of the eastern mercenarys - alans and such. Not that 14th cent greek wouldn´t fit when I think about it.
A very few lesser characters from the books should be kept as companions if nothing else than to just get the feel. I´m thinking the knight of the mad rat and maybe some of the outlaws. On that note, is there any intrest in giving Beric a mini-faction (himself, Thoros and Tom o sevens as lords, Acorn Hall as castle) as an "ultimate" difficulty rating? Could be fun.

[Night Ninja]

I think the Kingsguard could be left as lords without any fief that station themselves in King's Landing. Basically, these guys will leave the capital only when the king himself does. I'm not sure if this could be scripted, it's just my 2 cents.

[Kiado]

I think you're drawing the lines between the groups a bit too clearly, there. Were it up to me I would have more overlap between the groups(in part so that you don't end up with only Tier 2 troops). The reasons for this is that I would want to emphasize that these people belong to different 'layers' of society, with some having greater access to training and equipment, but still keep the element of experience, so that high-rank troops from the first tier are still very good to have around, and better than the lower ranks of the higher tiers; just not as good (or as expensive) as the higher ranks.

This might be a somewhat rough outline, but here's what I might decide to do (it would be different for the Ironborn and Dorne; maybe for the North as well):

Tier 1 = Level 1 to Level 20 - "Common" Soldiers, as it were. Lowborn, not especially well trained or educated. Lower ranks would basically be conscripts, higher ranks being veterans who have been fighting for a long time.

Cloth and Leather primarily, some mail/lamellar for the higher ranks of melee infantry and cavalry(might depend on faction, come to think of it). Recruitable in villages, as in native. Favour spears/axes over swords/maces for the melee troops; generally not great weapon/armour quality overall, though should be reasonable good at higher levels(btw, skirmisher, for lack of a better word, is something in-between melee and archer infantry; both melee and ranged capability, but less suited to either than the more focused troop types). 

Level 1	Recruit	-	-	-	-
Level 4-7	Light Infantry1	Light Skirmisher1	-	-	-
Level 8-11	Light Infantry2	Light Skirmisher2	Light Archer1	Light Cavalry1	-
Level 12-15	Medium Infantry	Medium Skirmisher1	Light Archer2	Light Cavalry2	Ranged Cavalry1
Level 16-20	Heavy Infantry	Medium Skirmisher2	Medium Archer	Medium Cavalry	Ranged Cavalry2

Tier 2 = Level 10 to Level 30 - Higher birth, better training and equipment; more professional soldiers, if you would. Only available from whatever faction you're in. Higher maintainance, and not as much diversity, but greater quality in equipment; mail/lamellar and partial plate for the heavier types, better weapon and horse types and quality.

Level 10-14	Medium Infantry1	-	-
Level 15-19	Medium Infantry2	Medium Archer1	Medium Cavalry1
Level 20-24	Heavy Infantry1	Medium Archer 2	Medium Cavalry2
Level 25-30	Heavy Infantry2	Heavy Archer	Heavy Cavalry

Tier 3 = Companions (as in; Heroes) - Generally in the 15-20 level range to start with. Essentially squires and knights of lower rank, though I would make sure to get some other companions in the mod as well; just not as troops recruitable from your faction. These should only be available when the player has both a very high relation with both the faction leader/marshal and the faction, and only one or two of them (and they should leave if you decide to leave the faction, unless they like you a lot). Very good starting equipment, and good weapon skills. Not any characters from the books, though; that way madness and a broken setting lies.


Feel free to complain, criticise or ridicule.

I think your ideas are good, and they are very similar to what I am thinking.  Matter of fact our troop level layouts are pretty much the same except you have lower levels.  I called mine "Infantry,Infantry2,Infantry3" which I essentially meant as "Light, Medium, Heavy".   Now I like your idea of separation by birth angle, as that is a very important aspect of Westeros.  I think we need the regional affiliation as well though, since it can add to troop variety.   I think if we combined the two it would work out well.   I like your idea of reflecting their birth station as a distinction between the tiers. 

The reason I had their levels up beyond like a Level 1 Recruit is because of experience for the player.  If I remember right, when you kill a level 1, you only get like 10 experience or somewhere in that area.  The difference between cutting down a level 1 and level 4 is hardly noticeable, I would say the only difference is the amount of experience you get.

Now as far as seeing armies of all tier 2 soldiers, I am hoping there is a way through coding to prevent that.  As I said earlier another mod uses a pool system to make sure only a certain number of troops are available, perhaps this could be used to limit that aspect.  Not real worried about that aspect yet.  Technically though, if someone was wealthy enough, would it be unreasonable to have a professional army with you?  I think the balance will work out at first, as the cost will off balance the number of units.   Later in the game when wealth is nothing, I guess it could get bad.  That can be figured out once something is even decided on. 

I think for now I am going to put the Tier 3 plans on hold.  I want to get the other troops in place and then see what would be the best way to do another Tier of troops beyond that.

Not sure I get where you´re going with the tier 3 bhoys, sounds like upgraded regionals? Other than that, good thinking, ´cept ranged cav doesn´t make much sence for anyone but Dorne. The third line could be a faction-defining tree, like northen axes, reach hobilars, Lannister pikes, Stormland marine inf (crossbows with nice melee) or braavosi pirates but mainly inf. On dorne, how about eastern byzantines? Less oriental than arabs, and quite a few texes that fits nicely? If you drop the hellenic heavy inf and look to some of the eastern mercenarys - alans and such. Not that 14th cent greek wouldn´t fit when I think about it.
A very few lesser characters from the books should be kept as companions if nothing else than to just get the feel. I´m thinking the knight of the mad rat and maybe some of the outlaws. On that note, is there any intrest in giving Beric a mini-faction (himself, Thoros and Tom o sevens as lords, Acorn Hall as castle) as an "ultimate" difficulty rating? Could be fun.

That table I made with "Ranged Cavalry" was just to reflect a general level for Tier 1 troops.   This standard would apply for all factions, whether they had that kind of unit or not.  It is an attempt to reflect the training and skill required to become a Cavalryman or whatever the case may be.   The Dorne faction for example would probably be one of the only ones with Mounted Missle units. 

I think an Arab look is probably the way to go with Dorne, it seems to fit better the more I think about it.  I think Clegane is right on this one.

As far as extra factions.  I agree with you, it would be bad ass to have things like that in this mod, but I am not going to focus on them yet.  Some of these features I am going to put on hold to get something playable out to you guys, and then things like that can be looked forward to as additions in future beta releases.  Anyways, I love the ideas, and they will be included anywhere and everywhere they can, at some point. 

I think the Kingsguard could be left as lords without any fief that station themselves in King's Landing. Basically, these guys will leave the capital only when the king himself does. I'm not sure if this could be scripted, it's just my 2 cents.

This kind of goes with the above statement.  The Kingsguard will be in the game, but how and when is not a main concern right now.  They are only 7 of a vast world to put into the game, so they will be there, but not as a primary concern for an initial release. 


   

[Jheral]

...  I think we need the regional affiliation as well though, since it can add to troop variety. ...

Like I said at the start of the post; just a rough outline. There should definately be differences between the troops of different regions, but one has to start somewhere, right?
(Also, even if the troop type stays the same, they don't have to be identical; differences in equipment could do quite a lot. And keep in mind that with the exception of the North, Ironborn and Dorne, all the factions are essentially the same culture; the same people. Personally, I never got the feeling that there were that much difference between them, in this regard.)

The reason I had their levels up beyond like a Level 1 Recruit is because of experience for the player.  If I remember right, when you kill a level 1, you only get like 10 experience or somewhere in that area.  The difference between cutting down a level 1 and level 4 is hardly noticeable, I would say the only difference is the amount of experience you get.

A fair point, and one I hadn't considered. Then again, killing raw recruits should hardly be an accomplishment to boast about, should it?

...  Technically though, if someone was wealthy enough, would it be unreasonable to have a professional army with you?  ...

Quite right, it wouldn't be unreasonable. However, the table you proposed would put all Tier 2 troops at much higher levels than all Tier 1 troops, and give them better equipment, meaning that there would be little incentive to use the first tier at all, if the second was available. My suggestion was to make the first a viable alternative, even when you had access to the second.

The overlap means that, yes, the second would generally be better, but the first will still stand a chance against them. That was my intention, in any case.

... I think an Arab look is probably the way to go with Dorne, it seems to fit better the more I think about it.  I think Clegane is right on this one.

I tend to agree with this, as well; a more middle-eastern theme would fit them much better, in my opinion.

[Night Ninja]

The thing about professional armies is that their upkeep constitutes a major drain on your resources. A wealthy house (not Great House. ) like the Hightowers may be able to afford a fairly large force of professional troops, but that investment takes so much gold away from other areas that it's often not worth it. Let's not even begin to think about landed knights or the lordlings buying the services of significant numbers of such men.

The way I see it, most houses of note would have a decent-sized force of professional guardsmen/soldiers and knights as a garrison*. In times of war, they call in their vassals and make do with what they have. Most of them will grab everyone they can get their hands on in short order e.g. peasant levies, sellswords, hedge knights.

*- We don't have many figures for this, and the existing sources contradict themselves. Jaime reckons that two hundred is far too large a garrison for Riverrun, but the Bastard brought five hundred crack troops from the Dreadfort. Admittedly, the Boltons may have left more men behind because they were planning treachery.

[Oroonin]

Quite right, it wouldn't be unreasonable. However, the table you proposed would put all Tier 2 troops at much higher levels than all Tier 1 troops, and give them better equipment, meaning that there would be little incentive to use the first tier at all, if the second was available. My suggestion was to make the first a viable alternative, even when you had access to the second.

The overlap means that, yes, the second would generally be better, but the first will still stand a chance against them. That was my intention, in any case.

If I´m not misstaken, the tier 2 units will be handled something like the faction-troops of tEatRC, where a recruit costs 10d. and a faction-troop about 250d. The tier 1 troops are hence viable if nothing else so for their low cost. Also, the tier 2 men would be cavalry or the like and you need a few archers and pikes drawn from the recruits anyways.

EDIT:  Fixed it for you. - Kiado

[Oroonin]

Unsure what happened there...

[Kiado]

..Stuff..

I don't consider anything in this thread a final draft of anything.   So don't think I am taking anything anyone posts as a final solution.  The more discussion there is, the more ideas we will have to go on.  All feedback and discussion is greatly appreciated.  

I see what you are saying about the Tier 2 troops.  Your idea of an overlap to discourage the use of only Tier 2 troops makes complete sense.  In "The Eagle and the Radiant Cross" mod, I believe he only has 2 units for each faction that are what I would consider "Tier 2" troops.   Not sure what the mod calls them.  Anyways, they cost 600 denars initially, and then a good 70 denars upkeep.   So at level 12 on my guy I can only afford to have 4 or 5 of the units or my costs would be too high.  Now, no telling how many I could afford later in the game, but it seems to balance well in his setup in tEatRC.  So basically these 2 different units are bought and they never change.  There is no upgrade path or anything.  

I wanted to have a little more diversity than just 2 troops though.   We could say 2 starting classes for those troops, with one or maybe two upgrade options for each one.  If we go that route, and not used a fixed never changing Tier 2 troop then I think the overlap is a good idea.  

It is safe to say that a veteran conscript is as valuable as a green professional soldier, right?

The thing about professional armies is that their upkeep constitutes a major drain on your resources. A wealthy house (not Great House. ) like the Hightowers may be able to afford a fairly large force of professional troops, but that investment takes so much gold away from other areas that it's often not worth it. Let's not even begin to think about landed knights or the lordlings buying the services of significant numbers of such men.

The way I see it, most houses of note would have a decent-sized force of professional guardsmen/soldiers and knights as a garrison*. In times of war, they call in their vassals and make do with what they have. Most of them will grab everyone they can get their hands on in short order e.g. peasant levies, sellswords, hedge knights.

*- We don't have many figures for this, and the existing sources contradict themselves. Jaime reckons that two hundred is far too large a garrison for Riverrun, but the Bastard brought five hundred crack troops from the Dreadfort. Admittedly, the Boltons may have left more men behind because they were planning treachery.

That is something we are going to have to figure out how to balance.  You are right, it is expensive, and should be equally expensive in the game to maintain a large professional force.   I think we also need to represent it in the other factions as well, and base it on the general wealth of the faction as to how many professional soldiers they have in their garrisons and parties.

I think I am not going to be too concerned with number of soldiers per faction at this point.  I am of the opinion that we go ahead and set it up pretty much the same across all the factions.  Then start play testing it with ourselves and a few testers and see how things play out.  If we can see one faction is hopelessly out gunned or way overpowering then we can try and make some adjustments to the factions then.   I think to see how it plays out in the engine will be the best starting point.  

[Kiado]

Quite right, it wouldn't be unreasonable. However, the table you proposed would put all Tier 2 troops at much higher levels than all Tier 1 troops, and give them better equipment, meaning that there would be little incentive to use the first tier at all, if the second was available. My suggestion was to make the first a viable alternative, even when you had access to the second.

The overlap means that, yes, the second would generally be better, but the first will still stand a chance against them. That was my intention, in any case.

If I´m not misstaken, the tier 2 units will be handled something like the faction-troops of tEatRC, where a recruit costs 10d. and a faction-troop about 250d. The tier 1 troops are hence viable if nothing else so for their low cost. Also, the tier 2 men would be cavalry or the like and you need a few archers and pikes drawn from the recruits anyways.

EDIT:  Fixed it for you. - Kiado

Yes, you are correct.  I am thinking of that same theory but with a few upgrade options.   Maybe the upgrades should have a cost associated with them too, perhaps that may help as well.  You could justify it by saying that the better equipment is provided by the Lord that commands them.  So say they cost 500 initially, and to upgrade costs 250 and raises upkeep even more, perhaps that could balance it.  Then again, this could cause havoc in getting it to work with the AI.   

You also bring up another good point.  If we limit them to only certain kinds of troops, you would need the Conscript level to fill out the ranks you do need, such as bowman for example. 

[tommylaw]

*- We don't have many figures for this, and the existing sources contradict themselves. Jaime reckons that two hundred is far too large a garrison for Riverrun, but the Bastard brought five hundred crack troops from the Dreadfort. Admittedly, the Boltons may have left more men behind because they were planning treachery.

by the time riverrun was taken, the war was won, there is no need of a huge garrison in the place

[Night Ninja]

*- We don't have many figures for this, and the existing sources contradict themselves. Jaime reckons that two hundred is far too large a garrison for Riverrun, but the Bastard brought five hundred crack troops from the Dreadfort. Admittedly, the Boltons may have left more men behind because they were planning treachery.

by the time riverrun was taken, the war was won, there is no need of a huge garrison in the place

I disagree. The whole point of a castle is to be able to assert control of a large area of land or a strategic point with minimal men. Having an overly large garrison means that they will consume far more supplies, which can affect their ability to withstand a siege.

[Nicodemus]

I would like to throw out a suggestion...take it or leave as you will.  I believe Clegane said that Jaime would be the faction leader of the Lannisters...it is my thought that it would be more indicative of the time setting you all are using (ie: Clash of Kings) to make Tywin Lannister the leader of the Lannisters.  I know that Jaime lead a host to Riverrun early in the WAr of Five Kings...but I wouldn't have said that he was commander of all the Lannister forces at that time.

I would think his duties and status as a Knight of the Kingsguard would be more fitting role for him to play whether as a single force commander or hero.

Furthermore, as it would seem Renly will be playing a role as a faction leader during this time it is especially fitting for Tywin to still be around as well for those of you that have read the books will surely know.

Just my two cents...I'm sure I'll be happy with any form the mod takes and what you all come up with.

[Irenicuz]

you can let tier 3 to be "the knightly tier" that would represent your own personal guard, granted to you by your faction. They could be without upkeep, but their number limited by your renown/honor/faction relation/sth else. If they die, you could replenish their number at faction leader (you'll get the lowest tier troop for tier 4 troops (sounds confusing I know), meaning squire or whatever). Or make them unkillable.

[tommylaw]

i like that idea, to expand on that (might be a long shot), could it be made so thaty after you win a certain amount of victories and have high enough renown, you'd be granted command of an army?

[Oroonin]

The general idea  I had with my troop-trees was to have the knights recruitable in the same way it´s handled in CaW, meaning they require a. vassalage, b. good relations with the lord you´re recruiting from via conversation. Possibly handling the "specials" the same way, keeping them recruitable only from the specific lord of that region i.e crannogmen from Reed, marchmen from Yronwood etc.
If anyone knows how to code this please post. Not my cuppa.