TLD: Screenshots

[Ron Losey]

Well, let's look at both sides of it.  There's not much more evil and menacing than somebody who thinks a knife fight is funny as heck.  "Ha!  Some more guys got killed.  That was great.  Let's do it again."  I mean, that's DARK.  That takes evil to a whole new level.  Even the executioners at NAZI concentration camps weren't that far gone.

It's sane people who look worried when everything turns to crud around them.  Scavengers and cannibals are having the time of their lives.  And a true sociopath doesn't even care if his side is winning or losing, as long as he personally gets some loot at the end... a violent psychotic might not even be that particular.

And Tolkien most certainly suggested that the orcs tended to be in the violent psychotic category.  Anybody who would ally with them might not be much better.

Just putting that into perspective.

[Triglav]

You're not being culturally sensitive here, y'know. You're imprinting your own ethical values on others and consequentially passing a moral judgement.

If it's part of a culture to be jolly about it and go "Ha!  Some more guys got killed.  That was great.  Let's do it again.", just because YOU find that evil, doesn't make them actually evil. Evil is relative. To themselves they seem cheerful fellows who like to party.

[pagan]

Don't get too caught up in Tolkien descriptions about good and evil, he exaggerated PROFUSLY in his writing.

How many people (elves,men whatever) were the fairest, or wisest, or noblest or any such romanticised horseshit in Tolkien writing. Only stands to reason then that the good would be the goodest and the bad the badest. He is using poetic licence for impact, not being literal. At least that's how i look at it. Same as his exaggerations on good and evil, the meanest, the most merciful. but behind the lines lies the truth. I challenge you to go through all his works and find someone who was plain. "Gondolin lyndrian was just your average Joe, nothing special about him at all, in fact if he served any purpose it was to make his brother the wisest, and his sister the fairest, and his dog the staunchest, and his window pane the straightest..."

Tolkien himself didn't like LOTR because it painted a much more black and white picture of the world then he would have liked. But you only have to look through the timeline of some of the races histories to see he had a point. Just read about all the crap between elves and dwarves. Or anything from Gondor and Rohans history. Their is lies, corruption, deceit, petty and brutal feuds, adultery, murder, even incest for fuck sake, ( i didn't know is not good enough lol). all seems like part and parcel of the bad races right?

Thus i am in favour of a more realistic view on middle earth, the way Tolkien himself envisioned.

oh, and you should read about the original fellowship lmao, very different from the end product. But publishers and such had their say in the book also, musn't forget that too.

If anything, Gandalf's view on middle earth was the most realistic. Like his comment on the Haradrim and how they were back home. Or on Gollum and so on.

And to end i shall leave you with a quote from the most wise, heavy metal band, iced earth. "Devil to some, Saviour to my own" As triglav says, it is all perspective.

[Merlkir]

Gandalf's view on middle earth was the most realistic. Like his comment on the Haradrim and how they were back home.

Don't you mean Sam? When he wondered standing above the dead Harad guy? (they gave his lines to Faramir in the movies, which was clever)

People often like to say "Black and white concept of good and evil, you know - like in Tolkien's works!"

And it's hogwash. If you can read between the lines and notice the small hints, Tolkien very consistently feeds you clues that most of what you hear about the "fair" good people is their own image of themselves. If you hear even Faramir talk about the "cruel Haradrim", you should understand it's hundreds of years of propaganda talking through him. 

Pagan mentioned the Gondorians and the Rohirrim and he's absolutely right. Númenoreans, the awesome kings of old so lovingly mentioned so often by Aragorn, have been basically exploiting the native population and stealing land wherever they came. The Rohirrim got their lands from Gondor and didn't screw around with the people who lived there either. Often you hear them comment on the Dunnish with contempt and disgust and only Háma shortly thinks about the possible reasons for their hatred for the Rohirrim.
Of course, turns out the Dunnish aren't evil, they think the Rohirrim burn their prisoners of war alive. Wouldn't you go to war against someone like that? If they stole your land?

And the orcs? Tolkien actually backed away from making them look too human or interesting and only left in a few small bits. But even those are enough to make you wonder. Stuff like the conversations between various ocrs here and there tell us their society was very much like our own in the modern world.

[Tautalos]

God! What have I done...

By dark I meant that those cataphract armors should have a more realistic crude-iron look, like the ones on the pic. Which would make them look more powerfull and intimidating.

That's all.

[Llew]

Gandalf's view on middle earth was the most realistic. Like his comment on the Haradrim and how they were back home.

Don't you mean Sam? When he wondered standing above the dead Harad guy? (they gave his lines to Faramir in the movies, which was clever)

People often like to say "Black and white concept of good and evil, you know - like in Tolkien's works!"

And it's hogwash. If you can read between the lines and notice the small hints, Tolkien very consistently feeds you clues that most of what you hear about the "fair" good people is their own image of themselves.

Quite true. The more I read Tolkien the more I see that it is far, far from black and white.

[ghanburighan]

Gandalf's view on middle earth was the most realistic. Like his comment on the Haradrim and how they were back home.

Don't you mean Sam? When he wondered standing above the dead Harad guy? (they gave his lines to Faramir in the movies, which was clever)

People often like to say "Black and white concept of good and evil, you know - like in Tolkien's works!"

And it's hogwash. If you can read between the lines and notice the small hints, Tolkien very consistently feeds you clues that most of what you hear about the "fair" good people is their own image of themselves.

Quite true. The more I read Tolkien the more I see that it is far, far from black and white.

Yes, this is true when talking about the people. The driving forces behind the war however, are indeed black and white. Sauron and Morgoth represent pure evil. They are the equivalent of devils in christianity (fallen angels). Because they couldn't make life themselves, they used 'good' creatures and corrupted them. So though not all servants of Sauron were very evil, and few of the 'good' guys were merely noble, I think Tolkien did envision the War of the Ring as a just war, with a pure good and a pure evil cause.

[onepostpony]

But how grey can LOTR be and still be right by Tolkien? Is Gondor simply a hop, skip, and a jump away toward a three-way civil-war? Is elven influence so poisonous for a ruler that he might take his chances with the occasional orc seige? Is there a Dunnish insurgency?

[Conners]

You're not being culturally sensitive here, y'know. You're imprinting your own ethical values on others and consequentially passing a moral judgement.

If it's part of a culture to be jolly about it and go "Ha!  Some more guys got killed.  That was great.  Let's do it again.", just because YOU find that evil, doesn't make them actually evil. Evil is relative. To themselves they seem cheerful fellows who like to party.

"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours."

[archerofthemark]

Wow, this thread got very grim. Though I gotta say, that last quote was a good one.

[Conners]

Thank Charles James Napier for that intelligent quotation .

[DaBlade]

The Dunedain ranger stands tall in the rain. The orcs are close, but he's not afraid. He dealt with them before, many times. He spotted the small group over a nearby hill; he counted seven of them, probably scouts. He's now sure they noticed his presence as well. He knows he can take down four or five with his bow before they get too close. As for the others... they'll be no match for his sword.

The Last Days of the Third Age

Coming soon to a computer near you.

[Merlkir]

yay, ranger!

(just so you guys know, they don't use the native arrows anymore. )

[Boosh]

Looking good! Can't wait.

[Arthadan]

Arrows will fly and swords will sing their old deadly song.

I can't wait for the release!